The powerful look for the “leaders” of OWS in order to refute them with ad hominem attacks.
The powerful want to co-opt the movement in order to get their candidates elected.
Axé.
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coldhearted scientist وداد 
Meanwhile, the efforts of AFL-CIO get SB 5 bill in Ohio overturned. Sorry, I’ll stick with narrow, even if it plays into the hands of conservative power-brokers.
It’s not one or the other!
No, it’s not one or the other. But in swing states, that kind of rhetoric actually plays into the hands of the plutocrats. I think in other, more stable economic times, I would be more open to it. In 2011, it drives me crazy because it can be a recipe for worst things to come.
I guess what I mean is that for you or for me it is not one or the other. But for a sector in the OWS movement it is. And it drives me up the walls.
US always has some anti-voting people, and any movement like this has its Spartacus Youth League type elements involved.
I should start putting up posts on different moments of US protest / movements, etc., like Civil Rights, which wasn’t just MLK being beatifically pacific and asking to vote – etc.
People who have interest in philanthropy and a better society have a finite amount of time, energy and money. I argued about the current effort in my church to spend their resources on Habitat for Humanity when I agreed that it was a worthy project but diverted congregants’ attention from the underlying issues that lead to the need for the project in the first place. Next year, there will be an attempt to divert the energy of the OWS movement into the election campaign to decide between candidates who will both maintain and extent the interests of the 1%. Some argue that Incrementalism is a better path but the thrust of the last few years in American society points in another direction.
Good for you on the HH point. And every good piece of US legislation isn’t put through just due to nice newspaper columns and voting or something like that. AFL-CIO, those were serious agitators back in the day. Etc.
Last night at 1 am police and sanitation workers swooped down on peaceful, law abiding campers and removed the Occupy London encampment in the first Canadian action to deal with the Occupy movement. You can see the operation here: http://youtu.be/4pwhHPwYIQw
And read the Canadian Press story here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11/09/occupy-london-ontario-police-eviction_n_1083387.html?1320839814
Spread the word. Toronto’s mayor, Ford also said that he is working on plans for Occupy Toronto and that the yurts represent a permanent encampment rather than a temporary situation (true). The authorities have underestimated the abilities of the movement to withstand the colder conditions (We`re Canadians! What the hell did you expect?) so now they`re trying more intrusive methods.
As you say, NG, people have a finite amount of time, energy and money to contribute. In my case, in 2012, it will be devoted to elect awful politicians. I don’t know about Canada, but in the US, the thrust of the past few years of US society has not demonstrated an alternative path. Or better yet, that when you divert your eyes from the electoral… [continued below]
[continued from above] …process the Koch brothers and the Chamber of Commerce are more than happy. You may say that Democrats and Republicans are the same. Maybe, but after 8 years of Bush, I don’t believe it. So I know perfectly well that I will be spending my limited time and effort trying to get a few moderate Democrats elected, no matter how much I am reinforcing the status quo. I’m a pragmatist, what can I say.
But SP that is useful work so I am not sure I understand the defensive tone. Especially if you’re working on legislation, ballot propositions, etc.
“I’m a pragmatist” is a sentence I’ve learned not to like, though – I’ve heard it used too often to justify things like accepting the Patriot Act, or as a synonym for apologetics.
The reason US people, especially before they get old enough to really start watching what is going on, are so apathetic about politics is that we are taught from birth that democracy means (and is limited to) voting for one of the choices a power machine puts up. The Occupy groups mean talking about politics more broadly, and their existence doesn’t mean you can’t vote. Might even influence how people think about what they vote for.
More on this: http://www.truth-out.org/ten-ways-occupy-movement-changes-everything/1321111931
In NY or California, maybe. In the Midwest, absolutely not. It’s wishful thinking at best. I have no problem with the OWS movement, as long as they don’t try to preach me personally all of this and expect me to agree with it. As the comments above show, some people actually believe that the behavior of US society now points to other avenues. I have a much lower opinion, so now and in 2012 I’ll work for the reelection of my Democratic senator (I’ve told you in the email I sent you what I’ve done so far). I’m very happy with whatever other movements decide to do, but I won’t clap happily to their explanations of how I’m being co-opted. All those declarations sound very pretty in the abstract, but make no sense in my LOCAL reality. Sorry.
Or, more accurately, the kind of comments in the site you linked to make me dislike this kind of statements even more. Specially regarding voting. If voting was just an empty exercise that only gets you a politician (as is said in the site you link to), Republicans wouldn’t spend so much time trying to desinfrinchise minorities (I think Teneessee is the latest example). Sorry, I come from a country where we actually experience dictatorships, so I have a hard time bring sympathetic to that rethoric (which doesn’t mean I do not agree on the diagnosis for the most part, I’ve just lost my idealism a long time ago. I just can’t bring myself to nod approvingly to this kind of statements).
I think N G means asks for a third rail, so to speak; a broader social movement. Remember Wisconsin? …I hope you don’t think this thread is trying to “preach to you personally” – and I’m sorry you are offended by it.
“If voting was just an empty exercise that only gets you a politician (as is said in the site you link to)” … ?
Hunh? Who/where? I’m all for voting. And/but: for most in this country voting rights were hard to get and it took more than voting to get them!
Here are Maddow and Hayes on it — an old video now, but still valid.
What impresses me is how the movement went so “viral.”
http://youtu.be/CAwlDchFzRg
What’s not clear to me is why people think it’s anti-voting (there
are lots of reasons why just waiting to vote isn’t enough) and why
they think it’s just a bunch of spoiled kids mad that their degree
didn’t get them a job (there are Iraq veterans, unions, etc.) and
also why people think it is just something US is doing (it didn’t
start here and it is worldwide).
I mean, look at Mexico, where voting doesn’t mean democracy; look at
all the social movements everywhere, now and historically; how do
you think people ever got together to discuss things; how do you
think consciousness ever got raised. I’m just not impressed with
the Argentine example — I know you’re proud of the “great political
passion” there but historically there has also been huge popular
support for authoritarian regimes.
Back to US, propaganda since mid 70s has been anti government and
anti politics, and voting in much of US is only “democratic” in
the narrowest sense – and the kids see it, and you have to be
*so* well informed to figure out what the meaning of what is on
the ballot (I live in the deliberately obscurantist South).
I don’t want to vote myself this November, although I will; I
have choices between Tea Partiers and cravenly corrupt
conservative Democrats, whoremongers and oil industry
representatives; and no, we haven’t been able to get other
candidates in and yes, we did try in the primary last month.
You *have* to do something besides just vote; they teach you
in school that voting is great but those who built the country
did that and more; many contributed great things before they
were in a class that had the right to vote; it took 150
years of labor agitation to get Congress to pass 8 hour
workday legislation, etc.
And I see there’s a Day of Action Thursday, with AFL-CIO + SEI and LIU: http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/DayofActionPlannedbyOccupyMovement/2011/11/12/id/417754
And here’s Bill Moyers on the situation: http://www.truth-out.org/how-did-happen/1320278111
And more on voting: there are states where up to 24% of the Black voting population is disenfranchised which is another reason why just telling people to vote and be good citizens in other ways isn’t enough. That has to be worked on, and in the meantime those people still deserve a political voice. http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/11/11/african-americans-and-felon-disenfranchisement/
And – FDR didn’t sign off on antilynching legislation due to fear it would cost him votes. Point: there is a lot of work that has to be done on everything before it gets onto the radar of voting, Congress, etc. Remember the political system in US is not really designed to include all citizens / all residents. Although patriotic education tells you it is, and although expanding voting rights is important.
Here’s Joann Wypleiuski’s piece on it, worth reading– http://www.thenation.com/article/164217/body-acoustic
I don’t know, I think it’s odd that people are freaking out as though Occupy were armed insurrection. Maybe it is that scary: the issues these people are raising are real. Sure, things are worse in China and Peru, etc., but the point would be to decide not to let commercial banks run everything (the way Wells Fargo apparently did in Peru at one point, and B of A and SP Railroad, California).
Electing Democrats has not worked too well lately. Look at the disasters of the Clinton administration which include basically ending welfare and expanding the Federal death penalty. It is better than electing Tea Partiers but far more needs doing.
And- on the question of who is really spoiled/entitled there is this comment: http://girlscholar.blogspot.com/2011/11/whats-matter-with-higher-ed.html?showComment=1320612210103#c2808597808703919064
…on point.
And- on the macho question I always get, “but I come from a country that had a dictatorship…”– well, I come from one that supported it, and also used to pick up torture victims from SFO, translate for them; lived in Spain under Franco; lived here under Jim Crow, etc. –your country used to be “really bad” I know, but I’ve heard too many people use that as an excuse to
call anyone left of center spoiled/unrealistic/lazy and I am kind of allergic to it. (It’s what Eastern Europeans used to say in support of Reagan, etc. – hence my allergy.)
Sorry, Z, but I don’t think I’m interested in an Opression Olympics contest, specially if its personal. It’s not about you, and it’s not about me. I will just say that many of the OWS participants have no clue of how to read political reality. That’s it…And I don’t think I’m interested in continuing the conversation, because you are bringing up stuff that I never said.
This is what you said: “Sorry, I come from a country where we actually experience dictatorships, so I have a hard time bring sympathetic to that rhetoric” … which rhetoric?
What I’d say in response is, you come from a country with dictatorships, but I come from one that has gutted its civil liberties since 2001 – and every Louisiana Democrat I’ve had a chance to elect has supported that. I seem to take this more seriously than many, perhaps because I was born during the civil rights movement and remember what it was like to have fewer of them, perhaps because of familiarity with dictatorships, perhaps because of close proximity in US to many people who have lost civil rights, perhaps because aware of US activities abroad which Democrats also support.
I also don’t that being from countries where one actually experiences dictatorships doesn’t make people more right about things – I’m not sure that this is what you mean by it, but I’ve heard it used that way and I don’t react well to it as a salida – FYI.
… I didn’t realize this was a conversation just with you. And you *did* come out with the “Sorry but I come from a country which had a real dictatorship,” line, it’s right up thread!!!
… Anyway my point is that I also don’t think all interpreters of / pundits on the OWS movement necessarily have a good read of political reality, either.
…And so many shouts I’ve heard of “they are privileged, they are Europeans and Americans, how dare they complain rather than be grateful for what they have had and still have” seem really misanthropic to me.
But, I’m sorry you thought my various notes were all directed to you or to your comments – my list of things said here is more of just a compendium of reactions by me to various things I read and hear.
More things I hear in the halls:
“They ought to organize for the Democrats and vote.”
But: they’ve been hearing that all their lives.
“Things are so bad now that they can’t be changed – the US is the greatest arms dealer, there is the prison industrial complex in bed with the banks, etc., people don’t realize how deep these things go; we have to do the best we can within current parameters.
So: you and I can do that, and I would say it’s valuable; I’m not clear on why the resentment of the occupiers, though — sure, maybe the project won’t last, or maybe it will accomplish nothing, but how bad is that compared to staying home, or just going to one more Moveon.org meeting, signing one more petition, walking one more precinct, etc.?
“They ought to have a clear program already.”
But: aren’t you asking a lot of something that has just started?
“They ought to have an identifiable leader, someone to contact.”
But: it’s multifaceted! Wait until things shake out a little!
My reaction in general is sort of, my God – why don’t people just let these people start their thing? I mean, if it were really that important to [you] to have some movement with a clear leader etc. and that wasn’t an already existing organization, you could start one such, right?
My other reaction, I’m underlining, is to the idea of how “privileged” they are — which isn’t entirely true for one thing. But more importantly, the changes of the last 30-35 years have been real and *are* worth noticing and thinking about, and I like the OWS movement because it actually grabs onto this.
And also – the idea that nothing at all may come of it me tiene absolutamente sin cuidado: something will surely come of it eventually.
More questions and comments from me –
Is it that bad of OWS not to have a complete set of programs yet? Also they don’t seem disorganized or unorganized to me.
And – perhaps on the comment I’ve been out of patience with for decades, about need to work within system in US because there are real dictatorships out there that real people have experienced – perhaps the Rx is actually the joy reaction: yes, I come from the country that gave the world May Day, etc., and it took work! Seriously, my meaning is that nothing was ever achieved without work both inside and outside of Congress and so on; you have to be working through the courts and also standing outside on the lines.
Next thought for this hour is that if it really is all that bad and mitigation is the only way to go, then you have to either go corporate or go off grid or both at once somehow, and fora like OWS would be places to figure out how.
Another email is waiting for you…
OK, I’ll get to it when I can, but look: I’ve got a heavy workload and this is a recreational blog. To also do e-mail discussions of OWS or anything much with individuals is kind of more than I can take – I don’t even have time to call my aged parents this week, you know?
And this post/thread is really just a compendium of things that come to me and others in relation to what we hear/notice that day; please don’t take it personally; nobody is trying to impose anything on you.
For me the line about coming from a country that has dictatorships and therefore knowing more is offensive for a lot of reasons. And the tone of much criticism of a nascent social movement, and of people like Scott Olsen, is demeaning, and I don’t like it.
I wish you’d made your original e-mail part of this thread.
OK so what the students here say is, it’s a social movement not a political one, and easier to understand from pov of Lat Am social movements & civil rights here; misunderstood as recreation of Woodstock.
This is the most interesting (or perhaps only truly interesting, to me) critique I’ve seen of it all so far. http://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/2011/11/annotation-project-open-letter-and.html
And here: really interesting post and thread from Tom:
http://automaticpreference.wordpress.com/2011/10/15/tea-party-co-founder-expresses-support-for-ows/
I only wrote you an email originally because it contained personal information that I couldn’t publish publicly here. Re the “I come from a real dictatorship” phrase, it’s in the second email but I’ll repeat it: I don’t claim it as a way of moral superiority, of Argentines know best or know how to organize best, etc… I just say it because for me, accepting so easy people who dismiss representative democracy is disrespecting the 30000 disappeared in Argentina during the dictatorship. As simple as that.
And if you still find that hurtftul, I’m sorry, but that past do shape my personal beliefs. And when Occupy Denver names a freaking dog to negotiate with the mayor (google Shelby+Denver), I don’t find it hilarious and subversive like many of my friends, I find it like a bunch of kids who are trying to be smartasses and it makes me sad.
Well, here’s an Occupy Fail I’m interested in: http://dont-read.blogspot.com/2011/11/racefail-in-occupy-nashville.html
Yes, it is interesting. But considering your opinion of me, I should probably stay away from engaging in a discussion.
I don’t see that OWS is dismissing representative democracy per se. I also don’t see OWS as a monolithic thing. Yes I have trouble with the concensus model but I’d really like to see things like proportional representation come in, and I’d like to see more than two parties in play. I hardly think these desires amount to dismissing representative democracy or liberal democracy.
I don’t see why that personal information couldn’t have been made more generalized and published here. And on formal democracy and so on: in this country we could (to some extent) have that *and* have disappeared, at once, I am fairly sure. We elected people who voted in the Patriot Act and renewed it. Quien sabe lo que vendra.
On the dog, no opinion, there is silliness, sure. Or theatre, I’m not sure what this was or what the intention was.
On my opinion of you, ahora se a que viene esto. Mira, Hattie es una vieja amiga muy querida, con *decadas* de trabajo por entes como Hillary Clinton, otros organos del partido Dem, la League of Women Voters, el apoyo a reos y el movmiento anti- prison industrial complex, y siii esta bastante al corriente de lo que pasa en el pais y en el mundo – y no tiene una posicion definida sobre Occupy, y esta tratando de seguirlo y ver que pasa; no me parece nada irrazonable esa actitud ya que estas agrupaciones estan ya en varios paises; me parecio injusta la descripcion de una persona asi como älquien que “no entiende lo que pasa” (?que es lo que pasa? ?lo sabe alguien a ciencia cierta?) – y algo ofensivo; y no se me ocurria en el momento una forma de explicar todo esto, y explicar que si se ha estado decadas en el pais con estes movimientos – desde los 60, yo como ninia y ella como adulta – se ha visto mucha variedad y se lo ve todo muy matizado, y es dificil llegar a una conclusion rapida o clara, como “esta es la revolucion” o “estos son unos ninios despistados que pueden simplemente abrir paso para que entren mas politicos de derechas” o cualquier conclusion univoca (hasta ahora). Mi posicion y la de ella, creo, es simplemente de interes: esta pasando algo, parece que es fuerte, ?que sera? Porque me parece que es temprano para juzgar. Pero como persona la defiendo y defiendo su mucha experiencia. No estaras de acuerdo con su interes en OWS ni en la mia, bueno, pero siii sabe tanto o mas que otros “lo que esta pasando” y no esta predicando a nadie. *Y es una amiga antigua y querida* y recibir mail con quejas de ella no me sento bien por cierto.
No creo que sea posible relatar en un hilo de blog o en un e-mail lo que yo he visto en mis proprias decadas de actividad aca en el pais. Es complicado y me es dificil tener una actitud que no sea de wait and see. No negare que me gusta que este sucediendo esto, y claro, estoy reacostumbrada al hecho de que cada loquillo aparece tambien cuando surgen estos movimientos; no suelo tomarlos como representantes/representativos de la gente seria.
Para (empezar a) finalizar: me siento en desventaja en esta conversacion o estas convesaciones por razones en parte mias (que traigo, que mis opiniones tambien son informadas por mi pasado) – vos tenes el trump card, porque tenes ciertas opiniones hechas (el movimiento no va a durar, te recuerda un momento de hace 10 anios en Argentina y queres darle una analisis similar, etc.) y no he llegado yo a conclusiones tan definidas; lo que me recuerda a mi son mas bien los movmientos sindicalistas y pro derechos civiles aqui en el pais (y me recuerda Woodstock menos que a algunos de los que hablan en la tv).
Total: no tengo una mala opinion de vos pero no me gusto para nada lo que me dijiste de Hattie y no supe / no sabia como reaccionar pero me fue ofensivo, siendo ella quien es.
En otro comentario o post o comunicacion dare mis observaciones sobre el terreno raro que son las conversaciones en los blogs, donde la gente habla casualmente y sin conocerse pero con mucha intimidad. *Sii es raro* y crea intereacciones raras a veces.
Yo este semestre me estoy liberando de unas cuantas obligaciones de toda la vida y algunas son: (a) el sentimiento de culpa por no aceptar el 100% la obligacion de siempre apoyar y trabajar en pro del partido democrata: me siento culpable; (b) la obligacion de cerrar los ojos ante la *insuficiencia* de la democracia en el pais: criticas el sistema actual del districting, de las elecciones, de winner takes all y te consideran traidor@; (c) la tradicion de siempre aceptar que los extranjeros son mas sabios, tienen mas experiencia y mas educacion y han sufrido mas y ademas somos anfitriones y tenemos que respetar y aceptar/escuchar/aprender, *no* estoy de acuerdo con tomar siempre esa actitud aunque me lo han ensenhado siempre y no creo que corresponda a la realidad.
I’ve also just seen so much more craziness than bringing a dog to negotiate with a mayor. Remember Abbie Hoffman was going to levitate the Pentagon, all kinds of *weirder* stuff has happened and also problematic stuff. So yeah, imperfect protest movement, imperfect government, hey, I see the whole thing as very matizado and am slow to get scandalized.
I’m also using the blog – remember this is my shadow side, on this blog – mainly to work out Issues and the pain I carry, and this sometimes salpica the readers. Remember I pounded an innocent statement by Feminema for weeks, becuase it touched a piece of pain I wanted to heal. Here what I’m rejecting is all my decades of listening to various things, “You’re an American so you couldn’t understand…” – “I come from where it’s worse, so I know…” etc. and not talking back.
Again, I’m sorry you thought this compendium of comments – really just me trying to figure out what was going on – was an attempt to convince you to be pro OWS in some particular way, it’s not although I’ve tried to explain to you my perspective on some of these things, it’s true.
And yes, I was offended by your comment on Hattie, and didn’t know how to deal with it because I was “seeing red” as it is said and didn’t want to engage on it although what I’ll say now is look: that’s an old friend of mine and an informed person, and she doesn’t claim to know what’s going on, but she’s done much more in system political work than you and has a lot of experience and insight, so don’t send me mail telling me she doesn’t know what is happening.
Finally – finally: I think there’s a whole lot that people like Hattie or me *damos por sentado* that you may not realize. *Of course* OWS won’t be important locally where you or I am. I’m not expecting it should be. There is much that there isn’t space in blog threads etc. to spell out.
But still: congratulations on results of your local elections; I wish I could say the same of mine; things I was for lost by large margins, etc.
My opinion of you is high, and my opinion of people doing hard work for great things, like you, is high!
I just have two or three sore spots that have been inadvertently touched, which are my issues not anyone else’s, but they are for the record:
1. Decades of guilt tripping over not always voting Democratic – voting Peace and Freedom, voting Green, etc., I’ve heard all too much about how this is everything from “unpragmatic” to traitorous.
2. The superior moral authority or wisdom claimed by various types of escapees from other countries over the years – and also by people who lived through the Depression.
3. The idea, which I have heard from many quarters, that if one is willing to be intrigued by the Occupy phenomenon, it is out of “60s nostalgia.”
The thing is, I really didn’t live through the Depression or escape from a dictatorship. This really does seem to make me less fearful and less cynical than I might otherwise be. I also remember the sixties very clearly and although it was fascinating I wouldn’t go back.
What interests me about the Wisconsin and Occupy phenomena, and others is the extent to which it looks like a symptom of a broader change in public discourse as it has been able to be since sometime in the 80s (I think – I’m not sure when). That certain questions can even be discussed now is exciting.
I am guessing, though, that the “I come from were there are real dictators … Americans do not realize …” hits one of my rage lines. Europeans, Argentines and Chileans have been lecturing me since childhood about how since I was an American, I would never understand, and then would either explain something very elementary, or harangue about something I disagree with (such as always voting Democratic, or whatever it was) and can lucidly. But since they were guests and were from less privileged countries than I — Europe was still poor then — I always had to take it. So now I get really mean: just because I’m American doesn’t mean I can’t understand what it is not to be able to vote, etc., etc., and I’m very sensitive to those kinds of implications, having had my patience worn out and having taken so many insults about my nationality — and having had to accept them since those handing them out were torture victims and so on.
And finally: I never advocated not voting: I just think the system here is not as democratic as it could be and massively corrupt, and I’m not willing to “just be grateful” for it. Remember, “be grateful and don’t complain, there are people with no representative democracy at all and you must honor them” is precisely what we are taught in elementary school and while it is true, it also serves as strategy of containment here. This I think is in part what the current people are rebelling against.
La verdad, no me interesa seguir con el tema. Como vos decis, mantener una conversation en un blog es algo dificil. Obviamente toque puntos muy personals en vos sin saberlo. Vos tenes el coraje de exponerlos en tu blog. Vos tambien, sin darte cuenta, tocaste un par de heridas frescas en mi, pero no quiero/puedo exponerlas en publico. Espero no transformame en una segunda Feminema, pero eso esta mas alla de mi control. Mas alla de eso mucha suerte, en serio.
Y no tenes obligacion!!!! Recorda: es una meditation blog aunque hay gente que comenta. I don’t know why you so urgently wanted to discuss Occupy with me or warn me about Hattie not knowing what was going on. I found that a bit much and didn’t know how to react.
As I’ve said again and again, I’m interested in OWS; I don’t know what the future of it is; I’m not convinced what other movements it “looks like;” it’s different in different places; I’m not now and never have been about saying more traditional politics don’t have their place; I’ve seen a lot of different political moments in this country and I really do understand how irritating some elements can be.
At the same time, putting all work to work for the Dems isn’t what seems best to me every time; sometimes it is; just because one doesn’t go all out for them doesn’t mean one doesn’t vote and isn’t glad there is some form of democratic government, etc.
I guess I’m just more relaxed about the Occupy, even if it turns out to be awful or a failure or is just a middle class movement or only does a little good or whatever, than some people are, and have more years of listening to “at least be glad you can vote – many can’t” and also “the best we can do is the Dems, lesser of evils” and have never fully believed that – and think that in this country at least there need to be movements outside political parties, including a labor movement. I can’t seem to get myself to be as critical of OWS as some people are, or convince myself I know exactly what it is. It seems to me you wanted me to be and I feel guilty about it for reasons I only partly understand.
*
And that is why I type about this: the feeling of asphyxiation I’ve had, and the feeling of !!!!! when I saw the comment on Hattie. What are the things this touches on? (And I repeat, this is my meditation blog, not a blog to engage people, and these comments are about my reaction to things.)
It’s the feeling of asphyxiation: I already know there are so many parameters to the discourse I’m in: have already heard so much about how Americans are ungrateful for the democracy they have; how out of respect for the tortured and those who couldn’t vote, we must not criticize anything about the system here; how the truly poor aren’t in this youth movement; how people who remember 60s and earlier are projecting dreams of what it is imagined they think of as glory days into this; etc. etc. – that it’s as though there’s no room to just say “I am interested in this” without getting jumped on somehow for naivete or treason or something.
That’s why I keep talking to myself on this – I want to breathe – and then I never like people I barely know telling me about things I do.
I don’t know. I’m partly also scarred from decades of being polite about these two basic sentences: “Believe what I do or I’ll call you naive and say you are projecting an American view onto things” and “I am warning you, your old friends are misleading you.”
And the purpose of this blog is to lift ghosts from me, burdens like the sentences above, and I am doing it. And I repeat: this blog isn’t an attempt to engage others, although I do respond to comments; it’s my meditation blog. And there are some people I am *really* friends with although I don’t always share their views, and Hattie is one of them.
…And this really is me psychoanalyzing me at this point, and I’m about to move the continuation of the meditation over to the Ponder line because the whole issue (for me, as far as I can tell) isn’t really about Occupy or not, or about any discussion of it, it’s about feeling coincee … which I don’t have time to be articulate about right now because of Werk, but it all has to do with the structure of certain discussions in which I feel asphyxiated.
(The logical question I have is why having questions about the way US governance works now dishonors 30000 disappeared in another country and not the many who couldn’t vote here for so long. What I always tell people who don’t believe in voting here is, they should in honor of those who fought *here* for them to be able to vote. But I don’t think this is where to continue this discussion.)
*This really is one of my deep issues and it is why it should go to the Ponder line, which I repurposed as a line for me to meditate at a time in the blog when I had someone taking all threads to discussions of projects of theirs, so I made that line a dedicated line for me to meditate on what I was meditating on.*
*But it’s that coincee feeling that’s my deep issue, and it doesn’t really have to do with any interlocutors here, and this I think is just one of the risks you take with blogs, all these people are discussing in shadow land as it were, and it’s particularly fraught on this blog which was started precisely as a way for me to practice having voice at a time when I really had lost mine.*
And: apparently there are major casualties in Tahrir square right now. Here’s an article that’s sort of frightening: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/314816
But I *still* think that even if Occupy ends right now, it will have raised a lot of questions and educated a lot of people and given experience and things to think about and this is why I still fail to see why to be perfectionistic / etc.
Meanwhile here’s live coverage from Tahrir Square (Egyptian cabinet resigned): http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/nov/21/egyptian-cabinet-resigns-live-coverage